Going Home

Concur, over the years, we've lost more than a few of our former HN teachers. But we can honor those who are still around and compile a list of the deceased and pay tribute to them postmortem. In fact, we should -- will -- compile a list of all the teachers who helped make us who we are today and read it at the next reunion.

I hope he means it and isn't just rich and bored. I'd love to just be in the courtroom in his corner at least with photographs of Fletcher.

Just read the Detroit News article about a man who wants "his" park back.

Maybe he should be invited to Fletcher Field and see what's going on there.

What a sad story it was!

http://www.detnews.com/article/20091118/METRO/911180324/Developer-wants-family-s-gift-back-from-Detroit

It is with deep regret the Living Nativity production has been cancelled. It was scheduled for Dec 5th. After reading this post you know we have other activities planned for this date at SOF multipurpose room decorating doors, treats and tree lightging ceremony...

I'm sure everyone remembers our Fletcher Field resident camel GUNTHER (and Rev. Imogene Johnson's adoptee)....well Gunther was scheduled to make another appearance with his friends at the Living Nativity, since that has been cancelled we know now that he also had another appearance scheduled at the Warren Civic Center just up Van Dyke north of 12 Mile the same day. We are yet undecided if we will be transporting our community kids to see him at the civic center after the tree lighting. Gunther was such a huge hit last year, ok he stole the show, and we all want to see him again! Stay posted for furhter updates.

bigmahl,
What's up?

Wow. A bit of a flashback. I grew up near 7 mile and Van Dyke, and had Ms. Lukashek for 5th grade at Our Lady Queen of Heaven School, a school just north of 7 mile on the east side of Van Dyke. It was school year Fall '75 - Spring '76 and I remember her as "hard but fair." Funny to see her name pop up. Ah... the internet.....

Michael -

The only teacher of the youthful age (22 at the time, I believe) was Ms. Ruptic. Don't remember her first name, but she taught 6th or 7th Grade for only one year ('76 or '77).

Of course, Ms. Ruptic had to endure a major crush from a particular 13-year-old.

Allegedly...

Thanks.
Jim

To rpenkala and Zona...thanks for making me feel like I have two "big brothers" standing up for me/with me on this blog. Zona, you and I have made many comments back and forth regarding Mike W and I appreciate it and believe we agree on alot of things. Now, we have rpenkala to add in the mix. I just got the personal email from Mike W thinking he "zinged me"...not true! If he would stop thinking he is Jesus and just do good works without the self-righteous crap, I believe most people would be thankful for it....especially when we all have to read his endless negative ramblings about how much more of a saint he is than the rest of us. Ugh!!

So, Ron and Robert....have a wonderful week and bless you both and your families too in this upcoming holiday season. And thanks again for help with the "bullies" out there.

Ron,

"I wish I understood why you have so much anger in you." I will begin to answer this question with a question: Why were Jesus and the Prophets filled with anger? Answer: It reverts to social INJUSTICE (see Isaiah 42:6-7; 58:1), which is a REJECTION of the way God set forth for authentic worship of God (practicing JUSTICE)! (see Isaiah 58:6-59:9)

Thirty years ago I had what I term a "spiritual awakening," which over a short time, changed my life and opened my eyes and heart to see and understand matters differently; to view matters not from the top, as most view them in this nation, but from the perspective of the poor and marginalized--the victims of unjust, violent and oppressive structures; to understand that unjust structures, and those who benefit from them, create and perpetuate poverty and the massive amount of suffering poor people are forced endure. Hence, I pain to see all the needless suffering and violence, here and elsewhere, ultimately because we have rejected the ways God set forth. The pain I experience turns into frustration, then into outrage.

There is a bumper sticker I first saw decades back that states: "If you are not outraged you are NOT paying attention." This is absolutely true. To perceive and witness injustice, poverty, violence, suffering, and devastation that the system creates and perpetuates and not become outraged demonstrates, in my humble opinion, a lack of respect and love for God (see Revelation 3:14-22) and the human family. To witness how the system grinds people down and throws them out to be trampled under foot is what angers me. To see our nation destroy other nations and massacre millions of people in my (and God's) name angers me. To see our nation destroy itself while most stand idly by with little or no concern, angers me. However, what angers me more is how, for the most part, the institutional Church and the Body of Christ remain silent and full of apathy in the midst of not only gross injustice, but idolatry and blasphemy, as some human beings, and God's creation, are considered worthless, expendable, collateral damage, cannon fodder for the ruling elite, to be sacrificed at the altar of greed for monetary gain and geopolitical control of certain areas labeled "strategic to national security."

Ron, can you not see that this nation merely gives lip service to God? Its policies are a mockery of God? (Thou shalt not kill; Love your enemies; Love your neighbor as yourself; thou shalt not covet thy neighbors goods et. al.) If people who believe themselves "Christian" do not stand against this diabolical insanity, who will? If not now, when? Can you not see that time is running out for the U.S.? Every empire in human history reached its pinnacle then fell, ultimately because of their rejection of God. The U.S.A. is no different. Therefore, my hurt, frustration, and outrage is rooted in my love for God and all God's creation, specifically other children of God who daily suffer because the Body of Christ and the institutional Church in this nation shrivels in fear and silence as they become submissive to and cooperative with empire. To use the overused adage: What would Jesus do?

"It is almost tragic to read how angry you are." Ron, if Jesus were alive and present here today, he would be as angry as he was when he overturned the tables of injustice in the Temple. If Jesus and the Prophets were filled with rage over unjust, oppressive and violent structures, why should we be different? The real tragedy is the lack of love, care, and outrage most in the church have demonstrated in the face of such great suffering that exists--much of which is at the hands of our nation. To quote Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., "There comes a time when silence is betrayal."

I do not recall taking cheap shots, as that is not my style. If you refer to my saying you have a narrow and uncritical view of this nation and its policies, this is what I perceived from your words that clearly support the status quo. You are correct, I do not know you. However, your support of this (filthy rotten) system reveals something about you. To disallow something other than capitalism as a legitimate economic structure, and love as a way of life, displays narrow mindedness. Therefore, it was not a cheap shot, but an honest observation.

I never implied, nor do I believe, I have all the answers. This was your assumption. Indeed, I have more questions than answers. Nor am I arrogant. Arrogance would play a part if everything I pose was merely thoughts or opinions. However, my entire thesis, my belief, is founded on biblical principles.

"My guess is that most people who read this blog love their country, as I am certain you do, don't see themselves as ignorant as it relates to the fundamental principles that their country was founded on, and, for the most part, are pretty happy in their lives." In my experience, most people refuse to admit that our nation was founded on genocide. Most believe in Manifest Destiny. That it is our God-given right, and thus God blesses, anything that our government says and does. Hence, the unnerving "God bless America" propaganda. That people are (were) happy with their lives (assuming you mean economically) actually is part of the problem. Why do we believe we deserve this materialism, while the other two-thirds of world lives in destitution and misery? Who do we think we are? If ALL people are made in God's image and likeness, why would God bless such inequality and injustice (and arrogance)? Are we not our brother and sister's keeper? Are we not all members of the family of God? Did not God give us eyes to see and ears to hear? Why then do we not see and hear the anguish cries of the poor and suffering; the victims of U.S. imperial policies--here and in distant lands? This is the tragedy. No, it is an abomination!

"...but we remain a generous and great nation." I beg to differ. Your statement is unsubstantiated and propaganda. According to U.N., the U.S. ranks near the bottom, just above Japan, in per capita contributions to developing nations. We do give a large dollar amount, but per capita is shameful. As I stated in my last post, most aid is military weaponry and training. We are number one in that category. We deal in death. Death and destruction is what we know and do best. This is reality.

As for heath care, I hate to be redundant, but profits over people is immoral and an abomination! The greater good would be to treat everyone as sacred and give each of person the health care we deserve. Instead of spending over a trillion dollars on the immoral and diabolical occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan, and cowardly incursions into Pakistan, plus the hundreds of billions on the war department itself, that money could easily give every person in this nation full medicare coverage for decades. We do not need for-profit health care. It is an abomination. It is selective in who gets covered and who gets treatment. Who lives and who dies. The results of a study just released indicates people without health care have a 40% greater chance of dying from a treatable disease than those with health care. Eight of every ten bankruptcy and foreclosures in this nation (until last year) was health care related. You consider this acceptable and something of which to be proud? I have been unemployed for four years and have not had health coverage for six years. I am one accident or sickness away from financial ruin for the rest of my life. There are tens of millions of others in the same situation. This is acceptable to you? As a Christian, you really should get out of your capitalist mindset, as it is antithetical to biblical principles and corrupts the mind and soul. Capitalism is pure evil. Human lives must have precedence over profits. To believe otherwise is utter foolishness and dangerous. This is elementary in human decency. Why should there be a profit motive where human life is concerned? Does God put a monetary value on us? Did Jesus? Then why should we accept and continue to allow this diabolical insanity? I am afraid you have allowed yourself to be corrupted by the evil incarnate in this system. There is absolutely no love or compassion in capitalism (except for the love of money--the root of all evil), yet love is what we as Christians are about. To quote Dorothy Day, co-founder of the Catholic Worker movement, "The only solution is love."

"Your recounting of the dropping of nuclear weaponry on Japan during WWII is "revisionist history" at best. You state items, as fact, which are not in evidence." Wrong again. The problem is you refuse to face reality. You, like many others, are in denial. You do not want to admit the great evil within. In the book: The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb, Gar Alperovitz, who worked in the Sate Department (among other positions), gives credible documentation on what happened behind the scenes and why Truman decided to go with the plan even when intercepted communication from Japan clearly showed surrender was imminent. The certainty is the A-bombs were employed with the intention of incinerating massive amounts of innocent human beings and poisoning the environment, a crime against God and humanity. Talk about arrogance. This intrinsic evil within is what most refuse to recognize. It is the reason God would not and does not bless this nation. It is why we should disarm and repent.

The definitive reality is that nuclear weapons are the ultimate hatred of God and all that God created. They are the ultimate idolatry and blasphemy. They are anti everything. They are diabolical and the taproot of all evil. They have absolutely no legitimacy. Their existence is a crime against God and humanity. Therefore they must be abolished, and it is our responsibility to stand against them and name them for the evil they are and call for repentance. You can call it arrogance or whatever you wish, but this is absolute truth, and only a fool would believe otherwise.

The gasoline engine automobile certainly is a death machine, in various ways: pollution--Los Angeles and Houston, among other cities here, and Mexico City among other cities around the world, have the dirtiest cancer causing, asthma producing air that has brought great suffering to millions of people. The death rate in auto accidents is one of the highest forms of death; and yes, it is responsible for much of global warming, though you appear to be one of the fools who rejects this reality and would rather wait until its too late. Sorry, but I value my grandchildren, future generations, and creation itself, too much to gamble with the life of the planet. Life is sacred. Money is not. Once the damage is done it cannot be reversed.

"In addition, if you advocate others to sign on as well, you condemn millions of people in poor countries to a life of poverty and misery..." Your argument is unfounded and absurd. The vast majority of the world's nations are willing to comply with stringent standards, if the largest polluters, the U.S. and China, will make serious cutbacks in gas emissions. It is not a matter of if we can, but

"To pursue the elimination of those items that support an industrialized society, we need to get rid of about half of those people..." The absurdity in your argument is amazing. You cannot be serious. Where do you get your information, or do you make it up as you go along?

"We don’t have regimes here in the U.S..." Wrong again. The Chaney-Bush regime was nothing but a fascist autocratic regime. The Constitution was eroded at an unimaginable rate with the likes of the Patriot Act, domestic spying, repeal of the Posse Comitatus Act, repeal of habeas corpus among other actions. The Chaney-Bush regime ignored the protections provided by habeas corpus. They spied on American citizens without warrants. They violated the First Amendment. They elevated decisions of the president above U.S. statutory law and international law. They claimed the power to withhold information from the people’s representatives in Congress, and they asserted, and behaved as if, they were unaccountable to the people, Congress, and the federal courts. The executive branch claimed the power to ignore congressional subpoenas. Republicans regarded Bush as a Stuart king unaccountable to law. The regime revealed itself as lawless, the worst criminal organization in American history.

"Two elections were fraudulent”...What was fraudulent?" Both elections. Actually neither were elections. The first was a selected president, while the second was stolen with fraudulent electronic voter machines in Ohio. Both documented by Greg Palast, investigative reporter for the BBC. The U.S. mainstream media (both electronic and print) was, for the most part, fully supportive of this fraudulent regime and became their mouthpiece and a rubber stamp for most of the eight abominable years. Therefore, to quote the NYT as your source is a lame and useless argument with no credibility, in my humble opinion.

"Blame both of those losses on two pathetic Democratic Party candidates..." WOW! Surprise, surprise. We can agree on something--both candidates were pathetic. However, I adamantly disagree with your first assertion. They were NOT to blame, as implied above.

"While the Bush administration may have erred..." Erred? Get real! Lies, lies and more damned lies is what they were about. They knew not truth.

"...That most are poor and/or people of color is irrelevant." I again beg to differ. It is very relevant as it exposes the racism and bias in the "injustice" system. Those who have the money receive justice while those who do not suffer. "How many of them are GUILTY of committing crimes?" What is guilt in this absurd unjust system? Innocence can be bought with a good attorney. Guilt comes with over-worked public defenders, many of whom could care less. Why do rich white people who violate the law using cocaine and get short sentences (if any) versus the poor person of color incarcerated for many years for crack? If you have not personally experienced the blatant bias personally, you have no room to talk with credibility. I can talk because I have experienced the biased nature of the filthy rotten system. As I previously stated, justice is in short supply.

Ron, You certainly have revealed yourself as a right-wing fascist-capitalist. There is no sense in continuing this discussion as common ground on which to build further discussions is near hopeless.

Blessings and peace. Mike W.

Robert,

It is all about perspective and balance, as you brought to the table as well. We all can launch on an angry screed about our country. There is much to be disappointed in our history, as we have not lived up to the standards that our founding set. As a doctoral candidate at the great urban public university in Detroit, my conservative voice is a fairly lonely one, but principled people will have pointed conversations that practice those Socratic virtues of intelligence, candor and good will. More than anything else, I wish that Mike could have some beauty introduced into his life, because it is everywhere, but you have to be open to seeing it.

To close, I agree with you that I hold no ill will toward Mike. I wish that he had not made it personal, questioning my commitment to the sanctity of life, but that is his choice. It is for that reason that I choose to end my participation in the dialogue with him. Plus, I suspect that, to most readers, this is pretty boring stuff, and I never want to be boring.

God bless you and yours. I hope I have the chance to meet you at next years' event.

Ron

Mr. Happy, it is an excellent idea to honor the past teachers of HNS. However and Alas, I agree with Mr. Piner that the time stream is a continuous flow and most of those dear personages are now flipping flash cards for the unclaimed Pagan babies beyond the veil on the shores of Limbo. Regretably, most tributes will be In Memorium. I hope some do show up and are feted and honored accordingly.

I was a rebelous young punk during my time at HNS and did not hold many of the teaching staff in high regard. I often parodied that Bobby Fuller Four opus by singing; " I Fought the Nuns, and the Nuns Won.....I Fought the Nuns and the Nuns Won"

There is one notable exception, however. I can recall my 7th grade teacher a one Mr. Maurer. Mr. Maurer was 25 years old during his tenure at Holy Name and like Mr. Piner inferred, that seemed old to a lad of 13.

Mr. Maurer ( His first name escapes me ) was one of the first teachers to treat his students with respect and wasn't a sadist like the likes of Mr. Joyce or others whose names live on in Infamy.

Mr. Maurer was sort of a beatnik and could play Elvis ditties accompanied by a guitar. This being quite archaic in the dawn of the Fab Four, John, Paul, George and Richard. Mr.Maurer had a way of calming an unruly classroom by stretching out his neck and intoning in a booming voice:"Say......You Shouldn,t Ought to Do Things Like That!"

Mr. Maurer rented a room near the Reyes residence and drove an old beat up two-tone '55 buick. One day after school my friends and I spied Mr. Maurer and his girlfriend making out in the Buick. Sneaking up upon the occupied couple, we pounded on the car and said "Say....You Shouldn't Ought To Do Things Like That!"

"I've Seen the Best Minds of My Generation Destroyed By Madness"
(With apologies to Allen Ginsburg)

RTZ

Mr. Rpenkala,

I have enjoyed your lively debate with our Catholic Worker ( Wobblie ) friend, Mr. Wisniewski. From one historian to another, it's good to see fact posted from a more reliable historical perspective rather than from trumped up religious dogma and propaganda.

Mr. Wisniewski has been with this blog from just about it's inception. He seems (to me) to have some sort of martyr complex. In an earlier post, he seemed to have got his sackcloth in a bunch, when I compared his fervor to that of a white supremist or survivalist awaiting an impending economic or social collapse.

In all due respect, I firmly believe in the U.S. Constitution's espousal of first Amendment Rights regarding freedom of expression. Let not this right be put down due to religious or goverment supprssion. Duely, in this regard, I hold no ill will towards Mr. Wisniewski.

In regard to Historical facts: Some are of the belief that the atomic bomb was dropped on Japan, rather than Nazi Germany, because the population of Germany were blond, blue-eyed Caucasions. On the contrary, the race for the bomb was hotly vied for on both sides of the Atlantic, with Germany coming out on the short end of the stick 5/08/45 as opposed to 8/06/45. Hitler would not have hesitated to nuke New York via a multi-stage A-4 Amerika rocket had he not been so quickly defeated after the D-Day Invasion.

My father, a 17 yr. old Navy corpsman (medic) assigned to a Marine Unit was slated for one of the first waves to hit the Japanese Mainland around 1946, had Japan not surrendered.

The A-bomb is probably one of the reasons why myself and countless other Baby Boomers are here today.

In regards to slavery, the agrarian Southern economy would have collapsed upon itself had the War Between the States never occured due to the rise of Northern Industry and the influx of cheap European immigrant labor.

In regards to genocide against Native peoples, let's throw in a Christian equation and add the spread of smallpox and other diseases mixed in with with prostylizing.

It might warm Mr. Wisniewski's heart to recall that "Whitey" got his due when he moved from South Africa to expand in Equatorial Africa only to have his immune system fail in the big pay back.

To Quote the Righteous Reverend Merle Haggard:

"I'll Drink a Little Beer in the Tavern, and Sing Me These Working Man Blues"

Robert T. Zona
HNS Class of '65

Mike,

I wish I understood why you have so much anger in you. It is almost tragic to read how angry you are. Also, you have decided to make this personal, with some of your cheap and personal shots. You don’t know me, who I am, what I have done, what drives my life and informs my thinking. Accordingly, there is no reason for you to take those shots.

Perhaps you are aware of the Socratic conditions for conversation over things that matter. There has to be some of the following:

1. Intelligence;
2. Candor;

and

3. Good Will.

I would urge you to consider all of the above items in your next response. You may actually have some valid and salient points to make, but they are lost for a number of reasons. Most of all, your arrogance in having all of the answers. It doesn't help in any way to advance your positions when you portray an attitude of certainty in all things. Your anger, almost palpable in your writing, diminishes your message.

My guess is that most people who read this blog love their country, as I am certain you do, don't see themselves as ignorant as it relates to the fundamental principles that their country was founded on, and, for the most part, are pretty happy in their lives. They probably, as well, see the flaws, deficiencies and shortcomings that exist between our founding principles and where we are at today. We have come a long way from our founding principles and, in some ways, we have lost our way, but we remain a generous and great nation.

Human Nature & Health Care Profit - Your argument is fundamentally flawed because you fail to recognize the greater good. If the profit motive results in the creation of life-saving/extending drugs, procedures and medical devices, that save, extend or improve the lives of millions, across the world, that cannot be ignored or minimized. You cannot or should not assume that these items would have come to the marketplace without the profit motive. Actually, the evidence is just the opposite. In countries where there is a strong profit incentive, there is a much greater output and availability of life-saving/extending/improving drugs, procedures and medical devices than there is in countries that do not share that profit motive.

There is no world in which we have unlimited resources. We have to make difficult choices. In a world in which we declare profit-driven health care illegal, we will experience a net negative as it relates to the only thing that matters, LIFE. People will do sooner, because these items will not be available to them. From conception to death, profit-driven medicine has had a tremendous positive impact.

That is not to say that we cannot make things better. We are a wealthy and generous nation and we should be able to create a "safety-net" for those that are unable to provide for themselves. But blowing up U.S. health care for the sake of 10-15 million people who are permanently without health-care insurance is madness.

You might be right that your list of dictators that we have backed is accurate. We don't have a great history of supporting good people. So I will stipulate to your point. Again, what is lost in your argument is the balance. 500,000 Americans died between WWI and WWII, freeing Europe from the oppression of dictators. We spent billions to re-build Europe and Japan and have never asked for that money to be paid back. We remain the defender of European NATO nation-states. My guess would be that, from your perspective, this is all part of the subtle, but insidious plot, of world-wide domination by the U.S.

Your recounting of the dropping of nuclear weaponry on Japan during WWII is "revisionist history" at best. You state items, as fact, which are not in evidence. Again, you are entitled to your opinions, but you are not entitled to your own set of facts. Bomb #1 was dropped on 6 August. Japan refused to surrender. Then, bomb #2 was dropped on 9 August. Despite the devastation and loss of life, approximately 120,000 Japanese citizens, it took the Japanese government another 6 days, on 15 August, to announce their unconditional surrender. This would be the same country you referred to as “ready to surrender”. Strange behavior for a country that was, in your words, “ready to surrender”.

You cannot be serious when you talk about the AUTOMOBILE as destroying the world’s population. This is part of the arrogance of all of your arguments. It lies in the flawed assumption as to the power of man, that we are capable, via the AUTOMOBILE, of destroying the planet. You are a convert to the religion of global warming as much as anything else. In your insistence on signing a comprehensive agreement to stop global warming, you condemn America to having the cleanest 3rd world economy in the world. It would be entirely reasonable to see this type of treaty as “back-door” reparations, taking money from me and giving it to someone somewhere else in the world, all in the theory that I have taken advantage of that person in the accumulation of my wealth in my 53 years on the planet.

In addition, if you advocate others to sign on as well, you condemn millions of people in poor countries to a life of poverty and misery, as they will never be able to industrialize and lift themselves out of their current conditions. Of course, if you are a fan of people cooking and heating your home by burning dung, reducing their life expectancy by decades in the process, then let’s get it on.

The evidence is that the more prosperous a country becomes, as it pulls itself out of poverty, the more, in the short run, that they will pollute more, especially on an industrial level. There is a tipping point though, as we have experienced in the United States, where our prosperity allows us to pursue environmental goals that perhaps serve as the best definition for “the law of diminishing returns”, all in the pursuit of a near-pristine environment. You cannot have an industrialized society without some level of pollution. The environment has never been pristine. It is a myth. Let’s also recognize the one indisputable reality of your belief in the religion of global warming. If, in fact, we are contributing to global warming, with catastrophic consequences to the planet and those that live on it, then the only solution is to simply start getting rid of people. The planet has a population of approximately 6 billion people. To pursue the elimination of those items that support an industrialized society, we need to get rid of about half of those people as well, since they will either starve to death, freeze to death, or die of disease without the modern technology of the 21st century. You simply cannot support 6 billion lives and do what you suggest.

Today, in the U.S., we have cleaner air than we had 100 years ago. We have more acreage covered by trees than we did 100 years ago. Those despised AUTOMOBILES that you reference, which those of us in Michigan won’t have to worry about manufacturing anymore, now put cleaner air out of their tailpipes than go into their combustion chamber. Rather than addressing a number of your points individually, I would invite you to read Stephen F. Hayward, of the Pacific Research Institute, “Index of Leading Economic Indicators 2008”, which can be found at http://special.pacificresearch.org/pub/sab/enviro/2008/.

You reference the “previous regime” as having “lied” to us about Iraq and WMD’s. Two points on that one. We don’t have regimes here in the U.S.. We have administrations, not regimes. The Merriam-Webster dictionary defines “lie” as “to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive”. While the Bush administration may have erred in their assessment of the danger of Iraq and WMD’s, only those that suffer from “Bush Derangement Syndrome (BDS) believe that George Bush “LIED” to American citizens. And where do you get your death statistics from? Do you seek out the most outlandish statistics and throw them out there as truth? Over a million (3 million is the number you give in a different part of your response) human beings have died? Why not 10 million?

“Two elections were fraudulent”. Actually, when I read this, I knew that you suffered from BDS. What was fraudulent? Get over it. Every re-count, including the NYT’s own independent re-count of the votes in Florida gave Bush the presidency. The other one must be the myth of Bush stealing Ohio in 2004. Blame both of those losses on two pathetic Democratic Party candidates, one who could not even win his own state, but who is now quickly closing in on entering BILLIONAIRE status, the other a MULTI-MILLIONAIRE through marriage.

“Civil society” – 2.4MM people imprisoned (mostly poor and people of color). That most are poor and/or people of color is irrelevant. How about this. How many of them are GUILTY of committing crimes? 50MM without health care. Again, you throw out numbers without any basis in fact. Reference the U.S. Census (unless, of course, those numbers are fixed!). The number of Americans who are permanently without healthcare insurance is around 10-15MM, still too many, but nowhere near the 50MM you throw out. The rich getting away with murder, corporations murdering the masses with pollutants and poisons, a nation that is complicit with drug cartels and warlords. WOW, you do live in a different world than I do!

I am a bit puzzled as to how we control 191 foreign governments, but I am certain that you have an explanation for that. Or, the readers can go to this website, http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=5564, which is where I would guess you got your information.

“Nation founded on GENOCIDE” – Again, according to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, GENOCIDE is defined as “the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group”. You really have to “stretch” that definition to apply it to the aboriginal people of America. Tragic, yes! Disgraceful, yes! GENOCIDE, I think not! I will not surrender the language to you. Words mean things and you throw them around like one might throw food to pigeons. But no, we did not found the nation on GENOCIDE. Yes, we came here and conquered the aboriginal people. That is not in dispute. We violated treaty after treaty. That is not in dispute. No, we did not commit GENOCIDE!

Ah, that great word, REPARATIONS! So, who do we pay it to and who pays it? I guess that I should pay it as a benefit of “WHITE PRIVILEGE” that I have enjoyed in America, even though my forefathers were serfs in Poland during the time that slavery was legal in America. Who pays me reparations to me for that? But let’s put all that aside. Approximately 618,000 Americans died in a war, more deaths than all of our other wars combined, to end slavery in this nation, the first civilized nation to outlaw slavery. You remember it. We call it the Civil War, although a more accurate title is The War Between The States. I guess that you don’t think that 618,000 lives were enough to express remorse. Now it is about the $$$$$$.

On New Orleans and Hurricane Katrina, this is another example of Bush Derangement Syndrome. Here is the way that our constitution works. The controlling authority for civil matters such as New Orleans and Hurricane Katrina is first and foremost, the mayor of New Orleans and the city government. The next controlling authority, only when requested to intervene, is the State of New Orleans. Then, if necessary, is the Federal Government involved, and by request. Yes, what happened in New Orleans was deplorable, and an embarrassment at all levels, a massive failure of local, state and federal governments. But why didn’t those people leave? Hurricanes are not like tornadoes. They don’t fall out of the sky without notice. Remember all of those unused buses flooded up to their floorboards? Did none of them have neighbors with cars that could have helped? No accountability there, just victom-hood, I guess. By the way, where were you when folks up in North Dakota were being flooded out in 2008? I did not see any of those people, some of whom are not rich white guys, blaming the federal government for their troubles. They banded together, as a community, and helped each other out. That is why I believe in America, that spirit of helping each other, rather than counting on government to help you out.

Finally, and this cannot go without addressing, you reference the “intentional murder and devastation of the poor” in New Orleans. Really? Must be because George Bush, as Kanye West so eloquently stated, “hates black people”. You really believe that George Bush and his administration conspired to kill people in New Orleans? My guess is that you are also a 911-Truther as well.

Life is sacred. Who are you to question my beliefs in the sanctity of human life? If a member of my family were denied life-saving or extending treatment, I would do everything I could to save their lives. So I should do what? Surrender this process to government socialized/nationalized health care. You mean the healthcare where nameless, faceless political bureaucrats will make the decision for me, no matter how much money I have. You mean a system where I might have to pack my 85-year old mother onto a plane and fly her to India to get the treatment I am willing to pay for, but won’t be allowed to pay for with Obamacare? Your and my generation grew up with the mantra to “Never trust authority”, but you would surrender your most precious right to government. Not me. Fix it for the 10-15MM, but leave the rest of us alone. Allow me to buy insurance across state lines, reform tort laws, eliminate state mandates on insurance providers, tax the health care benefits of those that receive them from their current employers, and allow benefits, like 401k’s, to be transportable from company to company But no, this is about grabbing 16% of GDP. I will pass on that. Not that this matters, but where is that constitutional authority to force me to pay for health insurance?

One final thought on health care. When you nationalize health-care, you fundamentally change the relationship between government and its citizens, as well as the relationship between you and me. Today, the government does not decide what level of health care I get. If I have the ability to pay, I get what I have the ability to pay for. But when government makes that decision for me, I am now enslaved by government. When healthcare is nationalized, the relationship between you and I changes, as we are now competing for limited healthcare resources. You can look at me and say “Hey, you are a big fat guy?. Lose some weight because you are costing me money”. You are now competing with me for limited resources, regardless of my ability to pay. Of course, the counter argument is that I should pursue a healthier lifestyle. Who would not agree with that? But who are you to make that decision for me? Who are you, or anyone else, to decide for me how I live my life? But it will create conflict, as socialization of costs invariably does, and already has. You are incredibly naïve to believe that, in a nationalized/socialized system, that you will be in control of the decisions around your healthcare decisions.

This is the final response for me, so I want you to know that you will have the last word. You make certain that you keep on keeping on. Your world-view sees conspiracy and evil around every corner, all of it perpetrated by the United States. You have a certainty about the words and meaning of Jesus Christ that doesn’t just border on arrogance, but leaps over it. You do represent, what my fellow classmate from Holy Name said in an e-mail to me last night about your last response, as the “I am Correct, You are Wrong, End of Story” approach, which is basically the foundation of most of your argument. You throw out numbers and facts that have no historical basis in fact, with the exception of historical revisionists and conspiracy theorists. You see the ugly side of life in everything you look at. At least that is what your writing would say to me.

God Bless you and yours.

To Donmar:

You are very kind. Thanks very much for your kind words. Bringing some sanity, as well as some needed balance, is exactly what I hoped to bring to this conversation. I suspect that we are not alone in our perspective. A classmate of mine from Holy Name, a good man who shall remain nameless, referred to this conversation, from Mike W's perspective as, "I'm right, you're wrong", end of story! Sort of sums it up for me. Nevertheless, I will take one more go-round with Mike and move on. As I said earlier, people have a particular "world-view" and I am not looking to change anyone's view. But, while we are entitled to our opinions, we are not entitled to our own set of facts. As to the facts in evidence, that is clearly where Mike and I part company. Stay tuned in for more, as I am certain this is not over.

God bless you and yours and have a wonderful Thanksgiving and Christmas season.

Ron

Mike:

I had many fine teachers at Holy Name. However, I seriously doubt whether many are still alive. I understand that many among us still harbor some ill feelings towards some of the nuns. For the most part, I felt that they brought down the wrath of God only on the guilty. But again, these nuns seemed elderly 35-40 years ago. I guess Sr. Marie Blanche would have been my favorite nun. As far as lay teachers, Mr. Moser, Mrs. Hartenberger, and Ms. Lukashek(sp) would rate highly in my opinion.

I sent a letter to Mr. Moser prior to the first reunion and included options for him to reply but got nothing back from him. Mr. Moser was immensely popular at Holy Name in my day.

Mrs. Hartenberger taught third grade for only one year, but she was without peer in my opinion. If need be I could try to track her down, assuming I can determine the spelling of her name.

Ms. Lukashek taught 8th grade for a couple of years and then I believe she took a position at St. Lads. I heard she married and thus has a different surname. She was tough as nails, which is what you needed to teach 8th grade. Again, if there is some consensus that she should be contacted, I will attempt to do so.

Let me know.


D.P.

Sesame Street "rocked" back in the day and I'm glad it's around for my Godchildren and all the other children to still enjoy!!! There is soooo much adult stuff out there for kids that I'm glad a wonderful show like this is still on the air. Happy Birthday indeed : )

Dear rpenkala, Thanks for adding some sanity....You make some very valid points and I am glad you have joined in the conversation. I've had the "back and forth" posts before so thanks for letting me not be the only one out there.

...and the Sesame Street books were a part of my children's bedtime routine - some of our favorite stories - always a great lesson (especially when the setting was Mr. Hooper's store and there was a broken teapot)!

I was surprised to recently learn Cookie Monster's name (Sid) which I must have missed somewhere along the way...

in order to keep up with the times, look for SS to embrace some high-tech (24/7) while skipping down the boulevard.

Ron,

Yes, we can agree to disagree. You are correct, you will not change my beliefs. There is a wide chasm between our viewpoints. Nevertheless, there are matters that I believe must be addressed, as to remain silent would be complicity on my part:

"...our nation is clearly the last best hope of the world..." It all depends on what your meaning is here. I could agree with you if your intent coincides with mine that it is up to the people to demand and make the changes necessary to make this a great nation--according to biblical mandates of a "just" nation. However, as this nation has evolved, you must be joking. A pathetic joke at best. Yes, we made progress in certain areas, no doubt. But we have digressed into an abominable monster in God's eyes: (1) the only nation in history to employ atomic (nuclear) weapons and destroy much of a nation and murder hundreds of thousands of innocent people--with malice! Japan was ready to surrender and Truman knew it, but wanted to "teach Russia a lesson" (a crime against God and humanity without repentance). This diabolical act now has the world courting utter destruction. (2) the first nation to employ depleted uranium munitions (a crime against God and humanity with no remorse) which has poisoned at least four nations (Iraq - both wars, Afghanistan, Bosnia-Herzegovina, and Serbia (with NATO) [perhaps Pakistan as well]) for dozens of generations, not to forget the U.S. troops subjected to its high toxicity. (3) The U.S. is the greatest purveyor of violence the world has ever known as it sells or freely gives its gods of metal (military weaponry) to nearly two-thirds of the world's nations accounting for 68.4 percent of the global arms sales. (4) The U.S. has established its control over at least 191 governments and has approximately 800 military bases on foreign soil. (If this is not an imperial power what is?) (5) The U.S. is responsible for the deaths of approx. three million people in Iraq (approx. 1 million of whom were children) with 12 years of sanctions and both wars and approx 3 million in Vietnam along with 64,000 total U.S. military personnel in these wars, all for no good reason and no repentance and change of heart. (6) Hurricane Katrina and the abandonment and intentional murder and devastation of the poor in New Orleans. (7) This nation was founded on genocide against the native peoples of this land, yet has thus far refused to acknowledge it as such and has broken nearly every treaty it has made with the surviving tribes--without regret or repentance. Moreover, this nation was built on the backs of slaves, that it has yet to give reparations. Indeed, slavery is alive and well in 2009, as most people in this nation are enslaved to credit card debt and the materialism and consumerism that is part of the fabric of capitalism. It has stolen and swindled vast amounts of land from its southern neighbor (Mexico) without ever justly compensating them for that land. With this history (not enough room to provide a comprehensive list) and without repentance and a change of heart (metanoia), how can it be considered legitimate, God-fearing, and the best hope for the world? This nation rarely, if ever, admits its mistakes, let alone repent for its diabolical behavior and prompt a change of heart.

"If we were, in fact, an imperialist nation, we would simply take the oil from a conquered Iraq and use it for ourselves..." In many ways this is already taking place as BP and Exxon (or Chevron) just received the rights to a percentage of Iraq's oil. Not forgetting that the only building protected by U.S. troops after the invasion was the Oil Ministry. However, the U.S. has built a different form of empire than its predecessors. It has employed a more subtle form of imperialism that forces its demands through monetary exploitation and intimidation (i.e. through the IMF and World Bank and its sister institutions, which the U.S. dominated) among other tactics including threats of massive bombing campaigns (Saddam/Iraq and Iran), and (CIA) assassinations (Jaime Roldos, president of Ecuador, Omar Torrijos of Panama or the failed attempt on Castro - Cuba). U.S. imperialism is undeniable, my friend. Open your eyes. I have written a manuscript being considered for publication on the horrors of U.S. policy and the lack of a Christian response. Research for yourself as the "truth will set you free."

"How does America destroy the world's population or America's population?" Its called the automobile, along with pollution of air and water, green house gases, chemical poisons in the soil, destruction of our water tables, refusal to sign a comprehensive agreement to stop global warming (in the name of corporate profits), rampant poverty and oppression, nuclear power and weapons along with other weapons of mass destruction, wars and occupations, torture, indeed militarism itself, to name only a few. The cancers, illnesses, suffering, death, and destruction caused by these and other policies listed and not listed in this post are destructive for everything God created.

"We spend more money, per capita, to provide for a cleaner and healthier environment than any other country in the world." That is really laughable. Where is the proof? This is propaganda at best and outright lies at worst. Look at Appalachia and mountaintop removal. This is healthy? Look at coal-burning power plants, which creates the greatest pollution. These are healthy? (Please do not refer to the illusionary "clean coal" myth) Where are the electric vehicles that would lessen our addiction and use of oil? Why did GM (and the oil companies) scrap the entire program back in the early 90's? Toxic chemicals used in agribusiness is healthy? Agribusiness itself is healthy? Genetically modified foods are healthy? The large corporate meat and poultry business is clean, healthy and humane? Gas guzzling SUV's are clean and healthy? The largest banks in the U.S. fund landmine and cluster bomb production. This is healthy and provides a safe and clean environment? The list is long, very, very long. I could list pages. Get a clue, my dear brother.

"...And we do this with about only 5% of the world's population..." That consumes nearly 45% of the world's resources and controls between 20-25% of the world's wealth; yet has the greatest gap between rich and poor in the world, and has the greatest emission of gases that cause global warming. Yes indeed, something of which to be proud. This is the God-like behavior required of us? Jesus approves of this behavior?

"Yes, I will not deny that we have amassed some of our wealth off the backs of the poor and weak." Some? How about nearly all? Yet even at some you seem to justify it and believe it acceptable not worthy of repentance and a redistribution of wealth stolen from the weak and poor. Do you ever read Jesus' words or the mandate by God against usury and stealing and not paying fair wages? It is impossible to understand these mandates and believe this system legitimate and acceptable. Jesus clearly stated that we CANNOT simultaneously serve two masters--God and empire (who created and supplies mammon).

"...America is not a 3rd world country today..." Open your eyes, Ron. The middle class is diminishing as fast as water going down a drain. The top 1% of the population now controls 95% of the wealth. Within 2-10 years the U.S. will be a third world country at best. Capitalism as we have known it is DEAD (thanks be to God), as is the U.S. itself. Look at Detroit, or Flint, or Cleveland, or Pittsburgh, or Skid Row and other parts of Los Angeles, or Appalachia, or a number of other areas. We certainly are a third world country, but have not yet realized it. Perhaps we simply do not want to face reality. Perhaps, like Jesus inferred, we are blind or asleep. Wake up! Open your eyes!

"Yes, we still have more (nukes) than everybody else, probably everybody else combined. OK, so what is your point?" Simple. We have every intent on using them, if necessary, to protect our hegemonic control of the world's resources. Diabolical insanity! Despite Obama's promise to reduce our stockpile, the Department of Energy's National Security Administration continues to move forward with the "Complex Modernization" program that will add an additional 800+ nukes that are more destructive than anything currently in our arsenal. A little known fact in life...there has never been a weapon built that was not used at some point. U.S. policy is not only to use them, but use them first. We came close to using them (first) at least 20 times since 1948. The clock is ticking. This is healthy for God's entire creation? This is authentic fear of the Lord? This is action of a (so-called) "Christian" nation? Even if not used, they destroy the environment and destroy lives by taking much needed resources from the poor specifically, but from everyone as our quality of life spirals downward, both physically, but more importantly, spiritually. Our intent to use nuclear weapons is the taproot of all violence and all that is wrong in this nation. Our soul dies a little more each day that they exist. Again, they are the ultimate hatred of God and all that God created. They are the antithesis of love. They are diabolical!

"You referenced that "greed and hoarding, which is intrinsic to capitalism" --- Really! Again, where is the evidence of that?" Where have you been hiding all your life, specifically within the last year? What do you call the events that led to the collapse of the financial system last year? What do you call the huge gap that exists between rich and poor in this nation as well as this nation to the other two-thirds of the world? What do you call the policies of Wal Mart that pays its employees minimum or near minimum wage with no benefits while reaping hundreds of billions in profit? These examples, and much, much more, are unjust, greed and hoarding according to biblical teaching.

"...but you must have something to replace it..." I have already listed what I espouse--the biblical principles of "Sabbath Economics" and "Jubilee Justice." Read what God offered humankind as an alternative to the filthy rotten and corrupt systems of empire. God never intended, nor approves of, the majority that lives in dire poverty, while the few have great wealth and live in wanton luxury, both as individuals and as societies. If you believe this foolishness or Utopian, then you do not really believe in God. Plain and simple. As stated in the gospel, "With God ALL things are possible."--if we believe and act on that belief. Closely read the referenced texts and allow them to speak to your heart. It is not hard to understand once you allow them to speak to you.

"We are, by design, a nation of laws..." Where? For whom do they apply? Surely not those at the top. The ruling elite just got away with the largest heist in human history by ripping us, our grandchildren, their children, and their children off for trillions of dollars. No one is held accountable. This nation, with its wars and occupations (costing hundreds of billions of dollars and countless sacred lives), its extraordinary rendition and detention and torture policies violate our own laws and international law, who is held accountable? The previous regime lied to us and the world about Saddam Hussein and weapons of mass destruction, as a result over a million human beings have died and a nation destroyed, who is held accountable? Two elections were fraudulent and stolen, who was held accountable? Are you some kind of fool, Ron? The laws here by and large protect only the propertied class, the ruling elite, and thus employed against society's weakest members. I see it daily on skid row. The homeless are harassed and jailed for trivial and absurd reasons while the rich get away with unimaginable crimes. Justice is in very short supply in this nation.

"Those laws provide for a "civil society"" Great idea, where is it? Where is the proof, Ron? There is no such thing as a "civil" society in this country. With approximately 3 million people (and growing) homeless, 2.4 million people imprisoned (mostly poor and people of color), nearly 50 million without health care, workers that work harder and longer yet receive less benefits than workers in other industrialized nations, the rich that get away with murder and grand theft, the corporations that murder people with their pollutants and poisons, a nation that supports drug cartels and warlords and corrupt and ruthless dictators while arresting the street user and street criminals etc. etc. etc and this is supposedly "civil"? Get a life!

A short list of a much longer list of dictators we either trained and/or supported include: Ferdinand Marcos - Philippines; Rafael Molina Trujillo - Dominican Republic; Roberto Suazo Cordova - Honduras as well as the current coup regime; Fulgencio Batista - Cuba; P.W. Botha - South Africa; Papa Doc and Baby Doc Duvalier - Haiti; The Khmer Rouge - Cambodia; Gen. Augusto Pinochet - Chile; Gen. Suharto - Indonesia; Reza Shah Pahlavi - Iran; Anastasio Somosa and later the Contras - Nicaragua; Col. Hugo Banzer - Bolivia; Idi Amin - Uganda; Mobutu - Congo; King Fahd Al Saud (and family) - Saudi Arabia; Saddam Hussein - Iraq; Anwar Sadat and Husni Mubarak - Egypt; Stroessner - Paraguay.

"I would argue that the profit motive that you vilify has saved more lives than we could comprehend." What is the point? Profits over people is, plain and simple...IMMORAL! It matters not how many lives were saved. What about the ones that were lost due to profit motives? Do they count for nothing? Are they not precious and sacred? I am not arguing about mistakes in treatment as I am about denying treatment and medication for reasons of profit. You can pretend all you want, Ron, but the fact remains profits over people is IMMORAL! Would Jesus tell a person that he could not heal them because it would cost too much to travel to their location, or whatever? Open your eyes and heart. If you believe yourself an orthodox Catholic, then you should know that ALL human life is sacred. Would you speak in the same vane if it was one of your family members who were denied either coverage or treatment that cost them their life? Would you explain to your family that, hey, look at all the lives that these corporations saved. So what if our loved one died as a result of a profit saving decision made by some corporate executive sitting in an office far from reality. They need to be profitable. They may have investors to please. This is what capitalism is all about, right? Come on. Cheer up. Look at the bright side. He/she is in heaven now and will not have to contend with this race for higher profits anymore.

Blessings.

Peace, Mike W.

Mike,

You are correct. I did misunderstand. When I saw the URL next to your name, I understood that you worked in a Catholic organization. I erred in my assumption that you held a traditional orthodox Catholic perspective. Clearly that is not the case.

Back in August of this year, I was visiting my daughter and her husband, and my newest grandchild, in Minnesota. I was doing some research to complete my doctorate in American History up at St. John's College during that time. On the way back to her house, about a 45 minute trip, I decided to listen to "left-wing" radio on XM satellite radio. It was then that I realized that those on the left have a completely different "world-view" than I have, particularly about the country that I live in. You share their world-view. I won't waste your time or mine attempting to change it.

I will just address a few of the items in your response and leave it at that. We can agree to disagree.

My view is neither narrow nor un-critical, in regards to my country and its policies. We are a deeply flawed nation, but our nation is clearly the last best hope of the world, despite its faults. I don't know how it harms me to understand its flaws, but have a positive view of it in a broader context. My history colleagues, especially over the last 30-40 years, have written of American history as the history of the aggrieved, whether it be women, blacks, homosexuals, poor people, ethnic minorities, etc.. In many respects, this has now become the traditional narrative for America. What I stand on is the evidence, of which you presented none. Many accusations, but no evidence to support your positions.

I offer the following evidence to your charges.

"America as an imperialist nation" --- False at face value and by definition. If we were, in fact, an imperialist nation, we would simply take the oil from a conquered Iraq and use it for ourselves. We would have taken control of Germany and Japan after WWII and created a 2nd "Empire for which the sun never sets", like England was. Interestingly enough, we are a hedgemon that really is not comfortable with it being a hedgemon. If we are an imperialist nation, we simply have failed to behave as one.

"American "way of life" utterly destructive for 1)world's population, 2)America's population, 3)world death sentence, 4)amassed off the backs of the poor and weak here and around the world; 5)amassed at the expense of the environment, and it is "clearly undeniable"." --- But where is the evidence to support this? How does America destroy the world's population or America's population? We supply approximately 25% of the goods and services the world consumes and, until the geniuses in Washington decided that it was a good idea to turn food into fuel, the American farmer fed the world as well. We spend more money, per capita, to provide for a cleaner and healthier environment than any other country in the world. And we do this with about only 5% of the world's population. Not a bad deal, in my book. As to the issue of clearly undeniable, it might sound good and make you feel good to say that, but it is "clearly not undeniable". Yes, I will not deny that we have amassed some of our wealth off the backs of the poor and weak. But America is not a 3rd world country today, where people are forced to work as slave labor for slave wages.

"We arrogantly dare to hold the world hostage with our nuclear arsenal" --- It is now 2009 and, as I write this, the 20th anniversary of the fall of the Berlin Wall. Since the demise of the Soviet empire, America is the only country to reduce its tactical nuclear force, while multiple nations have become members of the nuclear bomb "club", some of them which should concern all of us. Yes, we still have more than everybody else, probably everybody else combined. OK, so what is your point? You say that we hold the world hostage. Hostage from doing what? Hostage implies an attempt to leverage behavior of some sort or else we light them up, so to speak. So, please share with me the evidence that we have done that. I don't recall us ever using the threat of nuclear weapons outside of the potential use for self-defense, or eliminating the possibility of a nuclear power in our hemisphere, as we did with Cuba in the early '60's.

"You referenced that "greed and hoarding, which is intrinsic to capitalism"" --- Really! Again, where is the evidence of that? I am pretty certain that I understand the fundamentals of capitalism fairly well and I don't often run across greed and hoarding as intrinsic values. Yes, the worst thing about capitalism are capitalists, but you must have something to replace it if, in fact, you want to do away with capitalism. You are not a proponent of socialism or any other "ism", but you espouse its beliefs.

"Health care is a human right" --- You might be right on this, but we don't live in a theocracy, but a constitutionally limited representative republic. We are, by design, a nation of laws. Those laws provide for a "civil society". So, this "evil and rotten system" you refer to, which provides the highest standard of health care in the world, is clearly not perfect. We could clearly make it better, to make certain that the weakest and the poorest are provided for. I don't think any reasonable person objects to that.

But, as you describe, "unconscionable and an abomination that corporations are allowed to PROFIT from our health", you ignore a fundamental HUMAN trait. The work product, these amazing drugs and medical devices, that are created in this country and in others, are the result of people pursuing a goal of helping their neighbor AND prospering from their hard work, hard labor and the risk that they take. When it costs $1B to bring a drug to market that might not be approved, you have to make money somewhere. While we all have the capacity to be saints, few of us are. But I would argue that the profit motive that you vilify has saved more lives than we could comprehend.

Was DuPont evil when it expected to realize a profit from the work of Norman Borlaug, "The Father of the Green Revolution", winner of the 1970 Nobel Peace Prize who, because of his research, funded by DuPont, saved millions of lives by his modification of the genetic science of agriculture? Did the inventor of heart transplant surgery deserve to be rich because of his work, a procedure that has led to the extension of thousands of lives? Or how about any of the miracle drugs or medical devices that save or extend lives across the world? Perhaps you take some of those drugs. I suffer from hypertension, high cholesterol and diabetes, all completely under control because of "profit-driven" American medicine. Are you certain these drugs would have come to the marketplace if not for the "profit motive"?

Finally, you espouse a theological view promoted by Ched Myers, not by Jesus Christ. With it you bring little humility, for you say with certainty what is not certain. I wish that I had the spiritual knowledge, certainty and insight that you claim to have. All of your arguments stand on the head of a pin, in your discrediting of the Catholic Church since the conversion of Emperor Constantine.

I wish you well. As I said in the beginning, I do not expect to change your mind. Nor do I desire to extend this conversation further, as this forum does not lend itself well to an intellectual "back-and-forth". It is too easy to "cherry-pick" your arguments.

Please continue to do the work that you do. I know that you are a blessing to those you help. Expect less, give more and love like it will all end tomorrow.

Vivat Jesus!

Ron